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Post by quemaqua on Apr 5, 2008 13:02:31 GMT -5
This seemed to be the best place to post this despite not quite being correct.
I've found myself increasingly interested in the specifics of CLD's religious beliefs, both how they were shaped in his youth and how they were changed toward the end of his life. I'm particularly interested in this where it relates to statements and general elements infused within the Sylvie and Bruno books, but that's more an ultimate goal, not a narrow scope in which I want to limit myself. Being still quite new in my studies here I was wondering if there are any particular books on this subject which others have found informative, and what stances these books may have taken.
Thanks!
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Post by johntufail on Apr 5, 2008 17:46:36 GMT -5
Of the existing books on Carroll's religious views there are, sadly, none that inspire confidence. Taylor's 'White Knight' is probably the best, but the rumour mill has it that his publisher's forced him to to delete much valuable stuff in the interests of 'readership'. I sympathise.
Cohen's book contain's much information without any sense of understanding. This is understandable from an author who has always pomoted Carroll as a religious conservative, suddenly having to come to terms with the fact that Caroll himself descibes himself as (at the very least' as 'Broad Church' (i.e. liberal).
Don't blame Cohen, or Hudson etc to much for this, because until the 1980's, the Dodgson Family held an extremely powerful grip on the Carroll legacy. Sadly, it appears, they used this power less to reveal the various truths about the enigmatic CLD than to preserve the Dodgson Family name.
However, I can say that I have recently been asked to preview and review a new book that looks at Carroll's philosophy/theology by an American Professor of Philosophy. I have seen the prep proofs of this work and I believe that, at the very least, it will provide a firm base for understanding Caroll's philosophical and theloogical development.
The book is 'Behind the Looking Glass' by Sherry Ackerman, published by Cambridge Scholars Publishing. It is due out later this year. keep your eyes out for it!
regards
JT
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Post by johntufail on Apr 5, 2008 17:48:03 GMT -5
Of the existing books on Carroll's religious views there are, sadly, none that inspire confidence. Taylor's 'White Knight' is probably the best, but the rumour mill has it that his publisher's forced him to to delete much valuable stuff in the interests of 'readership'. I sympathise.
Cohen's book contain's much information without any sense of understanding. This is understandable from an author who has always pomoted Carroll as a religious conservative, suddenly having to come to terms with the fact that Caroll himself descibes himself as (at the very least' as 'Broad Church' (i.e. liberal).
Don't blame Cohen, or Hudson etc to much for this, because until the 1980's, the Dodgson Family held an extremely powerful grip on the Carroll legacy. Sadly, it appears, they used this power less to reveal the various truths about the enigmatic CLD than to preserve the Dodgson Family name.
However, I can say that I have recently been asked to preview and review a new book that looks at Carroll's philosophy/theology by an American Professor of Philosophy. I have seen the prep proofs of this work and I believe that, at the very least, it will provide a firm base for understanding Caroll's philosophical and theloogical development.
The book is 'Behind the Looking Glass' by Sherry Ackerman, published by Cambridge Scholars Publishing. It is due out later this year. keep your eyes out for it!
regards
JT
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Post by GoetzKluge on Feb 7, 2010 4:20:57 GMT -5
... I've found myself increasingly interested in the specifics of CLD's religious beliefs, both how they were shaped in his youth and how they were changed toward the end of his life. ... The following book describes very well the religious environment within which CLD (may have) struggled with his religious beliefs: Éva Péteri: Victorian Approaches to Religion as Reflected in the Art of the Pre-Raphaelites, Budapest, Akadémiai Kiadó 2003, ISBN 978-963-05-8038-0. Shortlink: www.snrk.de/EvaPeteri.htm (The title in that page is wrong. Péteri's Ph.D. somtimes is mixed up with another Ph.D. thesis because the publisher used the wrong ISBN for Péteri's book)The book is out of print, but some samples still are available. That book is not specifically about CLD, but describes very well the religious environment which influenced CLD (who also took an interest in the Pre-Rephaelite Brotherhood). Because of holiday.snrk.de/HolidayMillais.htm, to me page 34: Pictorial Blasphemy, Millais "The Carpenter's shop" was especially interesting. == From Lewis Carroll's and Henry Holiday's "The Hunting of the Snark" == Illustration to "The Baker's Tale" in "The Hunting of the Snark", Henry Holiday, 1876 "Christ in the House of his Parents", John Everett Millais, 1850 "Edward VI and the Pope: An Allegory of Reformation", 16th century, mirrored view(holiday.snrk.de/BakersUncle.htm) See also: - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VI_of_England#AccessionIn Art in an Age of Civil Struggle 1848-1871 (2007, p. 260-268), Albert Boime explains the significance of Millais' painting: "The Pre-Raphaelite work that most dramatically demonstrated that point [of Pre-Raphaelites having been capable of relaying troubeling messages to a contemporary audience] was Millais's Christ in the Carpenter's Shop." Boime also showed Millais' painting in his book (p. 261) as well as a wood engraving (p. 267) from the anglo-catholic Illustrated London News (1850-05-11). That paper probably made the painting known to the public. Charles Dickens described the persons depicted in the painting as ugly. I never understood that until I saw the terrible wood engraving copy in Boime's book. If Holiday did not "copy" from that painting, he at least must have known the painting and its composition. Therefore he also must have known the significance of the painting and the similarities between his illustration and that painting. Additionally to that, I assume, that Holiday and Millais both knew the painting depicting Edward VI and the Pope. Holiday may have quoted from both paintings and Millais may have copied from the Edward VI painting. I learned from art historians, that pictorial quoting by painters from other painters' works was an as normal procedure as textual quoting is almost expected to be done by, as an example, Tom Stoppard from Shakespeare, Kipling etc. So why should any "quoting" by Holiday from other artists be a surprise? Why shouldn't we expect it? Such a quoting can be a masterful art in its own right, as Stoppard's dramas (and Mahendra's Snark illustrations) still show to us in in our times. In case of Carroll and Holiday, cautious quoting from controversial works of arts with relevance to religious conflicts would have been a quite safe way to relay "troubeling messages" to the Victorian audience without getting into too much trouble (= meeting the Boojum) themselves. Goetz * holiday.snrk.de/
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Post by GoetzKluge on Feb 13, 2010 9:09:51 GMT -5
... Illustration to "The Baker's Tale" in "The Hunting of the Snark", Henry Holiday, 1876 "Christ in the House of his Parents", John Everett Millais, 1850 "Edward VI and the Pope: An Allegory of Reformation", 16th century, mirrored view... www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/4485138284/left: Segment from Henry Holiday's illustration (1876) to "The Baker's Tale" in Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the Snark" depicting some of the Baker's 42 boxes piled up outside the window. right: Segment from a painting (c. 1570) by an unknown artist (commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ed_and_pope.png). The segment is displayed in a mirrored view and. Thomas Cranmer is positioned on the very right side.He had forty-two boxes, all carefully packed, With his name painted clearly on each: But, since he omitted to mention the fact, They were all left behind on the beach.In 1552, shortly before the early death of Edward VI, Thoma s Cranmer wrote down 42 articles, a protestant doctrine. In Henry Holiday's depiction of the staple of some of the Baker's 42 boxes piled up outside of the window of the Baker's uncle's room, the numbering of the boxes #27 and #42 is visible. (Another number perhaps may be either #11 or #41.) In Cranmer's 42 articles this would correspond to: - 27. Yhe Wickedness of the Ministers doth not take away the effectual Operation of God's Ordinance.
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometime the evil have chief authority in the ministration of the Word and sacraments: yet forasmuchas they do not have the same in their own name but do minister by Christ's commission, and authority: we may use their ministry both in hearing the Word of God, and in the receiving the sacraments. either is the effect of God's ordinances taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from such, as by faith, and rightly receive the sacraments ministered unto them, which be effectual because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be ministered by evil men. Nevertheless it appetaineth to the discipline of the Church, that inquiry be made of such (evil ministers), and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences, and finally, being found guilty by just judgement, be disposed.
- 42. All men shall not be saved at the length.
They also are worthy of condemnation, who endeavour at this time in restore the dangerous opinion that all men, by they never so ungodly, shall at length be saved, when they have suffered pains for their sins a certain time appointed by God's justice.
mywebspace.wisc.edu/dgehring/web/hist361/week5.html
Cranmer later was accused of heresy (as usual because of political reasons) and left his articles behind him before he heroically recanted his recantations: "On 14 February 1556, he was degraded from his episcopal and sacerdotal offices in preparation for execution. Following his trial, Cranmer was put under intense pressure to recant. Desperately lonely and broken, Cranmer at last signed a series of six recantations, the last of which rejected his entire theological development. Although the more traditional practice was to impose a lesser sentence on recanted heretics, Mary maintained that Cranmer should burn. On 21 March 1556, Cranmer was to recant publicly, using a speech that had been endorsed by the government before suffering his punishment. Instead, he stunned the authorities and the gathered crowd by recanting not his earlier theological positions but the recantations themselves. He then ran to the stake and steadfastly held his right hand, the hand that had signed the recantations, in the fire. His heroic end undid much of the government's planned propaganda against him and his Protestant cause and earned him an honored place in Foxe's catalog of Protestant martyrs." Encyclopedia Britannica (1911), encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/3776/Cranmer-Thomas-1489-1556.html#ixzz0fOrxfcwXThe "Baker" in Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark has many features in common with Thomas Cramer, but perhaps also with you and me. The Baker "is" not Thomas Cramer as well as he "is" neither you nor me. But if the Wycliffe Hall student Charles Lutwidge Dodgson accidentally may have found a book about a "Snark" written by Lewis Carroll in a bookstore, and then also would have read the poem, the lines about the Baker's 42 left behind boxes may have remindend him of the Wycliffe Hall student Thomas Cranmer, his 42 articles, his leaving them behind, his yielding to evil and yet his final naming of the evil before Cranmer had vanished away. www.snrk.de/snarkhunt/#fit1Goetz * holiday.snrk.de/FourtyTwoBoxes.cgi
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Post by GoetzKluge on May 23, 2010 9:25:00 GMT -5
The left picture shows the burning of Thomas Cranmer. The right picture is a segment from Henry Holiday's illustration to the last chapter of Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark. It shows something, which could be a burning stake as much as it could be a beak or a claw (all perhaps with some little help from John Ruskin's Gneiss Rock, holiday.snrk.de/img/thevanishing_gneiss.jpg) or a right hand in flames. As for Carroll's religious views, what did Cranmer's 42 articles mean to CLD? There is material available on CLD and the 39 Articles. On April 22nd 2004, Karoline Leach wrote in www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html (original text not available anymore): "The idea of comparing this scattering of commentary to the 39 Articles, which was the very backbone of 'orthodox' Anglicanism of the time, strikes me as brilliant. It would be the first ever attempt to bring a structural analysis to where Dodgson stood in relation to the Anglican Church. Considering his position as a lecturer at Oxford, who ought to have been in holy orders but wasn't, this is of considerable biographical importance, and might help get a much clearer view of Dodgson the man."More: - groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/3258, - groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/3539, - groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/3342, - groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/3337, - groups.yahoo.com/group/lewiscarroll/message/14447. - www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll/religion/Changes from Thomas Cranmers 42 (Edwardine) Articles to 39 Articles (Elizabethian): www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.ix.vi.v.htmlAs for debates (in the Victorian era) related to the topic of Article 42: See also chapter The Angelican Tradition: From Thomas Cranmer to F.D. Maurice in Ryan D. Spinks, Reform and modern rituals and theologies of baptism, 2006 ( books.google.com/books?id=tmlCdu1fCJAC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Frederick-Denison-Maurice+Thomas-Cranmer). and www.cornerstonemag.com/imaginarium/inklinks/ink007.html: Maurice "rejected the idea that sin would be eternally punished, emphasized the "Inner Light" with the possibility of revelation to the individual apart from Scripture (but not inharmonious with it)." As for Carroll and Maurice see www.google.com/search?q=Frederick-Denison-Maurice+Lewis-Carroll+Dodgson.
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Post by GoetzKluge on Jul 31, 2010 13:32:28 GMT -5
... [on the Baker and Thomas Cranmer] ... www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/4485138648/in/set-72157623880319676/:Besides the graphical connections between a print showing the burning of Thomas Cranmer at the stake and Henry Holiday's illustration to the chapter The Vanishing in Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark, also Carroll's poem itself provides clues that the Baker may have gotten burnt: www.snrk.de/snarkhunt/#033:033 He would answer to "Hi!" or to any loud cry, 034 Such as " Fry me!" or " Fritter my wig!" 035 To "What-you-may-call-um!" or "What-was-his-name!" 036 But especially "Thing-um-a-jig!" 037 While, for those who preferred a more forcible word, 038 He had different names from these: 039 His intimate friends called him " Candle-ends," 040 And his enemies " Toasted-cheese."
www.flickr.com/photos/bonnetmaker/4485138284/in/set-72157623880319676/:We probably never will get evidence that Reverend Dodgson wanted to point to Cranmer's 42 Articles when coming up with the Baker's 42 boxes just out of the blue, but surely he knew, that the number 42 plays an important role in the history of the Anglican church.
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